videoredo vs others

[js3j]

I am a new dabbler in video editing. I have a number of VHS tapes of speeches - not too much motion. They are in general 1-2 hours each. They idea is to bring them to the PC do very basic editing such as adding a title and cutting a minute or two here and there. After that they wouold be put into DVD format and burned and/or put back onto VHS.

Avi files are just too big especially for 720x480 resolution (Im trying to get the largest) therefore I would like to have my video card automatically save them as mpeg2 as it comes in.

My question: On what type of mpeg2 editing does videoredo have the advantage over the other larger software packages such as pinnacle, adobe and ulead?

Do the current versions of pinnacle, adobe ... still recompress the whole hour if I only edit a few minutes of the file?

If not what do they still do that degrades the quality that videoredo does not do?

Finally what software should I get for the above - I already have a video pci card that reads in the video into Mpeg2 (and theoretically avi) and a DVD burner.

 

[ihateacid]

pardon me if im wrong, but i think VideoReDo does the editing of various MPEG2 formats that arent very popular. after u edit it(lets say cutting out commercials from a TV Show), u save it, VideoReDo just selects the bit u want and save it to a video file(usually u save it in .mpg file in other to play with it with other Video Editing Tools)

 

[js3j]

But videoReDo saves it without recompresing the mpeg - which is great for keeping the mpeg quality.

My question is how much recompression do the current versions of other software do?

 

[bits]

But videoReDo saves it without recompresing the mpeg - which is great for keeping the mpeg quality.

My question is how much recompression do the current versions of other software do?

The intended uses for VRD are different than for Pinnacle or Adobe or Ulead so you really should not compare them per say.

VRD
- frame accurate cutting of mpeg2 (HD transport streams and SD mpeg2)
- Fix HD TS/TP files from a growing variety of HD recording devices/sources
- Fix SD mepg2 files
- GUI for quickly finding and making cuts. It makes removing commercials from recorded TV a breeze for example
VRD is essential if you are recording HD TS or SD mepg TV shows and you want to remove commercials.
- it is a handy tool for making cuts to mpeg2 files and maintaining audio/video sync

Pinnacle,Adobe,ect..
These are intended more for the start to finish creation of a personal video. They do multiple things but all of it is geared towards personal video. However they ususally do not do a very good job of frame accurate mepg2 cutting/trimming.

I have been converting my family VHS to DVD for a few years now and I started out using Pinnacle then Nero Vision Express then Ulead Video Studio 8. Now I use VRD to make the scene cuts, basically cut the converted mpeg2 VHS video file into the desired pieces. I use VRD for this because the versions of the above software I was using did not do FRAME accurate mpeg2 cutting and many times I ended up with audio/video sync issues.

 

[Anole]

just three things...

I was about to post a comment when I saw Bits very thorough reply.

I was just going to mention three things:

1) VRD can do frame-accurate cutting
2) VRD maintains audio synch, and can even correct it manually if needed.
3) Nero Suite, Ulead, and others will, by default, re-encode your entire video without asking, taking lots of time and possibly reducing quality.
VRD used with a non-reencoding authoring program is a better combination in many cases, than the above all-in-one suites.
(and, on this forum, you can find out how to tame Ulead and Nero, to prevent them re-encoding your VRD-edited video)

Oh, and #4 on my list of three, but often more important...
VRD combs, cleans, filters, and corrects the source video, making it more digestible by following programs/tools.

= = = = = = = = = = = = =

edit: I don't think we answered the original question.
Maybe these points will help:

1) capture in high resolution, but at a low data rate (maybe as low as 2mbps)
VHS source material isn't very good, so 8mbps is just a waste
Experiment at lower capture resolutions - you may discover similar quality, but smaller files.

2) however good or bad the original capture is, VideoReDo won't damage it.

3) there are other considerations to recording off tape that have been posted in this forum, and you should become aware of those problems.

4) if file size is a concern, the authoring packages that re-encode to full DVD specs might be a hindrance.
I make DVDs with 544x480 video at around 2mbps, and I use DVD Labs (It doesn't re-encode my source material)
There are also freeware tools that will probably do the same.

 

[HyperReality]

@bits: Don't forget VRD also supports HD MPEG2 Program streams (.mpg), as well as formats such as Microsoft's .dvr-ms files (HD and SD), and Topfield .rec files (TS files with a proprietary header), amongst others.

 

[js3j]

OK so it sounds like I should use VRD for frame cutting but also personal video software for other tasks.

If Im done cutting and am ready to

1. add a title at the beginning and end what should I use?
2. author it onto a DVD what software would you suggest?

Should I use one of the complete suites such as Ulead, Nero.... for the titling and authoring or stick with a simpler program?

Can someone provide a link to the forum topic of taming Ulead and Nero (I don't seem to be successful with the search link for the forum.)

Anole, when you say to capture in high resolution - I assume you mean directly as an Mpeg2 by the video card as opposed to a raw avi (or mpeg4) to be later converted into an mpeg2 va software - is that correct?

Regarding what ihateacid wrote, are there many formats f mpeg2? I thought that was only an issue for mpeg4 which is one of the reasons I wanted to avoid mpeg4?

 

[Anole]

I author in DVD Labs Pro.
It's not cheap, but it is good for most authoring tasks up to the professional level.
I like it because it doesn't re-encode, but does have a lot of features (of which I use only a few).

Phd has answered many questions from users on this forum, about getting the various flavors of Ulead to run properly.
His help is invaluable in that respect, if you run into any troubles.
Search on Ulead and Phd

There have also been a number of people having a problem where Nero Suite likes to re-encode their video, even when it's in the proper DVD format.
Unfortunately, people aren't clear when they say NERO, if they mean the authoring suite or just the disc-burning program ( I use only the latter and love it!)
Search on NERO and Phd, or NERO and DanR

Anole, when you say to capture in high resolution - I assume you mean directly as an Mpeg2 by the video card as opposed to a raw avi (or mpeg4) to be later converted into an mpeg2 va software - is that correct?

Sorry I was not more clear.

first:
Some capture hardware can capture in 720x480, which is the proper DVD format.
Some may also capture in lower resolution, (possibly due to a hardware limitation) and it may or may not up-convert to 720x480
It's the lower resolution capture that is the source of lost quality in that process.

second:
Most capturing hardware/software lets you choose the capture bit rate.
If it allows 8 mega bits per second, don't assume that's the best choice.
If you are getting 352x480, 480x480, 544x480 or some other less-than-full resolution capture format, the high bit rate will do you no good.
It will only make your source file bigger, and wasn't that a complaint, above?
If you have a choice of bit rates, try 4mbps, 3mbps, and 2mbps.
You may discover no difference in quality at the lowest bit rate.

third:
You asked about capturing in AVI vs mpg2.
If you can have your software output mpg2, and mpg2 is what we need to make a DVD, and mpg2 is what VideoReDo deals with, then MPG2 it is!
Avoid the conversion steps into/out of AVI, if your tools allow it.

titles:
You also asked about adding titles to the video.
I do not do that.
When I make DVDs, I have the authoring program make a menu, from which I use the DVD player's remote to choose which show to watch, etc.
In my case, I often use a frame from the movie, or TV series, as a background, and place hot-linked text over it to choose which episode to view.
In other cases, I've used one of the author program supplied graphics as a background, then use a thumbnail sized frame from each of two movies as part of my menu.
Beyond all this, you are getting into the creativity you can have in DVD menues, and that goes beyond the scope of this answer.

 

[js3j]

What is the difference between bitrates such as 4, 3 or 2 mbps as opposed to frames per second as in 30fps? Sometimes the video card software shows one and sometimes the other. (I think it usually shows fps for reading it in as an AVI.)

How would I fit a 4 hour speech (not good quality in the first place) onto one DVD?
Do I shrink it after reading it into an Mpeg2 (if so how) or read it in originally at another bitrate? What are the advantages of each method?

 

[Anole]

If you plan to make an NTSC DVD, the frame rate has to be 29.97 fps
If you are making a PAL DVD, the frame rate is 25 fps.
Those are DVD requirements.

For NTSC, it needs 480 horizontal scan lines.
For PAL, I belive the number if 525 (but don't quote me).

The above two measurements are fixed by DVD format
The number of samples per line and the bit rate are not so constrained.
Official full DVD spec is 720 samples per line. This is also called D1.
For 1/2 D1 recordings, you get 352; 3/4 D1 is 544 samples
(I know they don't add up properly)

Low speed on home DVD recorders is usually 1/2 D1.
DirecTV apparently transmits in 480x480, which is sufficient for modest size TV sets.
Dish Network (another satellite provider) uses 3/4 D1

Data rates down to and even below 2 mbps are used to get more channels on a satellite, or more hours on a disc.

Here are the specs for one of my typical TV shows:

            File Name: G:\DVDlabsTemp\XCESS 061204_025122.mpg
            File Size: 4852430848 ( 4.52 GB )
     Program Duration: 03:36:41.18
            File Type: PS - MPEG2
             Encoding: MPEG 2
      Video stream Id:  xE0
  Encoding Dimensions:  544 x 480
         Display Size:  544 x 480
         Aspect Ratio:  4/3
           Frame Rate:  29.97 FPS
             Bit Rate:  3.579 Mbps
           VBV_Buffer:  224 KB
              Profile:  Main/Main
          Progressive: Prog or Int
               Chroma:  4:2:0
         Audio Format:  Layer 2
      Audio Stream Id:  xC0
       Audio Bit Rate:  160 Kbps
  Audio Sampling Rate:  48000 Hz

Even though the bit rate shown above is 3.579 mbps, that's just the maximum.
The average bit rate is more on the order of 2.2 mbps.

and here is a typical commercial DVD:

            File Name: \\Opteron\Stripe1 (J)\Soprano1_Disc1\VTS_01_1.VLST
            File Size: 4474255360 ( 4.17 GB )
     Program Duration: 03:27:34.16
            File Type: PS - MPEG2
             Encoding: MPEG 2
      Video stream Id:  xE0
  Encoding Dimensions:  720 x 480
         Display Size:  720 x 480
         Aspect Ratio:  16/9
           Frame Rate:  29.97 FPS
             Bit Rate:  9.202 Mbps
           VBV_Buffer:  224 KB
              Profile:  Main/Main
          Progressive: Prog or Int
               Chroma:  4:2:0
         Audio Format:  2.0
      Audio Stream Id:  AC3: 1 (x81)
       Audio Bit Rate:  192 Kbps
  Audio Sampling Rate:  48000 Hz

Three ways come to mind to solve your problem.

1) record at a low resolution and bit rate
2) after recording, editing, and authoring (to a set of files required to burn your DVD), run the whole lot through DVD Shrink
3) before or after editing, run the video through a tool to change the bit rate and horizontal samples (re-encode)
One program I've used, is WinAVI - however, it's like a Doctor's medical kit - it takes time to learn an use properly (and you can kill the patient with misuse).

There are many good technical discussions on this forum.
The help file (and PDF copy) for VideoReDo is a wealth of information.
Google is your friend, as is my signature line, below.
There are a number of fine video help sites and resources, including Doom9.org and VideoHelp.com

 

[js3j]

One more question.

I've been doing some reading on the forums.
I understand that cutting and authoring are not editing. Editing is doing things such as adding titles or fading effects (If thats wrong please correct me). Is it true that all the discussion here assumes that no editing is done - but if there is ANY editing even just adding a fade or title at the beginning or ending minute of a 2 hour mpeg, the whole video would have to be re-encoded. This of course, would take very long and degrade the quality of the whole video - not just the edited minute or two.

Is that true and is there any way to avoid re-encoding the unedited portion which is almost all of it?

 

[js3j]

Thanks for that answer.

Out of curiosity Is DVD-Shrink a re-encode? Otherwise how would it shrink it?

 

[bits]

Thanks for that answer.

Out of curiosity Is DVD-Shrink a re-encode? Otherwise how would it shrink it?

Some say it transcodes and others may say it encodes but yes it changes the video file so that it is smaller in size. It does a very good job provided you are not reducing the file size by more than 20-25%, at least that has been my experience.

js3j also wrote:

One more question.

I've been doing some reading on the forums.
I understand that cutting and authoring are not editing. Editing is doing things such as adding titles or fading effects (If thats wrong please correct me). Is it true that all the discussion here assumes that no editing is done - but if there is ANY editing even just adding a fade or title at the beginning or ending minute of a 2 hour mpeg, the whole video would have to be re-encoded. This of course, would take very long and degrade the quality of the whole video - not just the edited minute or two.

Is that true and is there any way to avoid re-encoding the unedited portion which is almost all of it?

Most of the software I mentioned in my earlier post do have options for not re-encoding. Ulead Video Studio for example, which IMO is a fairly good package, will not re-encode the DVD compliant mpeg2 files...just the inserted fades and transitions. The problem I have run into is that some transitions caused the audio/video sync to go out...most did not but a few did.

So yes it is possible to have transitions/fades/menus without re-encoding the main mpeg2 file. However, if you add titles to a file or change brightness or denoise ect...then that particular mepg2 file will need to be re-encoded

 

[phd]

@Bits:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but the AV sync issues may be due to the version you are using - UVS8.

There are numerous posts on the Ulead forum regarding this version. Versions 7, 9, and 10 appear to work well for the most part.

A little trick I use with VideoStudio is this:

Do the pre-editing with VideoReDo and cut into the segments needed. Cut smaller section of the file to render just what is needed. For example, for a transition, cut 10 second from the end of the first clip and 10 seconds from the beginning of the second clip with VideoreDo.

Load the snippets into UVS add transitions, titles, etc, for the segment and perform the rendering using Share>Same as first clip.

Join the rendered segments and unrendered section back together using the Joiner in VideoReDo.

 

[bits]

@phd:

Thanks for the tip. I am in fact using UVS8 but rarely because of the audio/sync issue. I suppose I could spend some money and upgrade.

I have found work arounds. I have created some fades and transitions in compliant mpeg2 that I insert in TDA.

Also have being toying with the idea of going the Sony Vegas route.

Thanks again.

 

[phd]

@bits:

One other thing I forgot to mention. Check SmartRender also.

Some reported AV sync improved with the UVS8 patches, others reported it got worse!