Label problems with DVDs

smaye

New member
Hi,

I have created about 15 DVD's from content extracted from my HD Directivo. I thought I was getting really good. I checked them quickly on the PC before burning and then quickly on the DVD player and TV after burning. All looked really good.

I gave one to my Dad to view. He loved it up to the point it locked up on his DVD player about 1/2 way in. I thought it a fluke, so I tried another on my DVD player. It locked up about 1/4 way in.

These were run through VRD with max GOP set at 24. Any ideas as to the source of the lockups?
 
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Anole

Moderator
off the top of my head...

1). recording media - brand, etc
2). burning too fast or getting interrupted during the burn
3). finger prints, smudges, dust on the media
(I once had some discs where the white printable surface flaked, leaving bits on the bottom of each disc)
4). player more happy with Plus or Minus discs, and you're feeding it the other kind.
5). too-high an encoding rate, exceeding 10mbps for even a second will spike a lot of stand-alone DVD players but be fine on your computer.

I spent a lot of years with a junk burner, and only after getting a different brand (and a much later model), AND better media, all my previous problems went away.
I'm very loyal to my NEC 35xx burner fleet and white printable Prodisc 8x media.
Other combinations will certainly work, but I've had way too much fun experimenting, to do it all over again! :cool:
 
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smaye

New member
Hi Anole,

Very interesting! I was going to jump to the conclusion it was related to the non-DVD standard video sizes, but the ones I have tested were both HD and run through TMPGEnc, so the end product was DVD compliant.

Burning speed- I never set that. I left it to the player. I guess I better look.

Smudges, dirt, etc - Nope. These were pristine.

Media type - These all were DVD-R. There were 2 different player in this case.

Too high encoding rate - Never thought of that. Where can this be checked?

"Burners and media brands"- I have been using my BenQ DW 1625, but I also have an NEC ND-3540A. All the media has been Ritek brand, but I have 100 Verbatim DVD+R, too.

I have been using the burning software within DVD-Lab Pro for burning all these DVDs. When you start this software it warns it could have incompatibility issues with some players. Could this be a source of the lockups as well?


I will do a series of tests to try to narrow down what is the cause. I guess I should count myself lucky I did not have 100 of these things made before finding this out!

Thanks Anole!
 
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Anole

Moderator
works for me

I used to burn on a pair of NEC 3520's, and now on a pair of 3540's (or -50's, I forget which)
I always burn two discs at a time.
My media is rated 8x, and I've burned two at a time at 12x, 8x, 6x, and 4x.
Currently, for some reason, I burn at 4x or 6x, and I think that's because I was using some junk media for a while and forgot to go back to faster speeds.
Certainly, the 6x worked very conservatively whenever I felt the need (on 8x media).

I use NERO Burning ROM 6.6 (though 5.something worked fine, too) exclusively.
It lets me select the burn speed, and choose one or two discs to burn, as well as whether to verify (I do)
Don't know how other procedures work, 'cause I haven't tested them.
I've never tried the burning feature of DVD Labs.

Some players like -R, some like +R, some don't care.
I have both on hand for testing but the bulk of my burning is on -R, single layer, white printable, 8x ProDisc media.
I also use their silver printable, but it seems to come from a different source (though it works fine and looks great).

The encoding rate you use to convert from hi def to DVD format is one possible source of trouble, though I doubt it in this case.

There are several setting spread around VRD:
pull down menu: Tools | Options | Stream Parameters | Encoder Quality = Auto
may not apply: Tools | Options | Transport Stream Output | Output Mux Rate = Automatic
after edit: Save As Button | Options | Bit Rate = 10 mbps (maximum)

Of the three above, I believe only the first one has any affect on the actual encoding rate, and that's just at edit points.
(I'm sure the developers will correct me if I'm wrong on that point)

These are just the settings I use, and they seem to work, and not get in my way.
I'm sure there are other settings, discs, burners and programs which work equally well, but it took me a very long time to find one combination that worked, so I'm no longer in a very experimental mood. :rolleyes:
 

bitter_old_man

New member
Ritek media can be real garbage. In particular, Ritek G05 discs have been known to burn OK then degrade to unreadable in a very short time.

Barry
 

smaye

New member
At one time (long ago) Videohelp.com had rated Ritek media one of the best. I know as of recently it is not held in as high regard. My media is G04. Through testing I am going to isolate exactly what could be causing this.

I was running these TV shows through VRD and DLP right and left. I had been pretty sure of myself and my procedure for burning these.. WRONG. From here on out I will take a slow step-by-step approach to try to isolate what the issue is. Here are the variables as I see them:

  • Media
  • Burner hardware
  • Burner software
  • DVD stick-on labels
  • Encoding rate


Yesterday I re-burned my last project with Nero 6 burning rom. No label on DVD. I put it in the TV DVD player and let it play through twice with no issues.

Now I tried the same project I burned a couple days ago one the same media and has a stick-on DVD label . This was burned using the DVD-Lab burning software. It just locked up.

It is not absolute yet, but so far it appears my issues could be either the burning software or labels. The reason I keep referring to these labels is that I have read many posts both ways about these causing or not causing problems. Sort of a urban legend or something. Do you guys have any experience with using these labels?
 

Anole

Moderator
Well, they could make your discs unbalanced.

I returned a couple hundred crummy DVDs a few years ago due to the fact that they basically weren't balanced.

I print directly onto my (printable) discs with an Epson R200/300 printer.

And , having said that, I wouldn't expect your failure mode is your stickers... but since some blanks are more translucent than others, anything is possible.
 

smaye

New member
Well, they could make your discs unbalanced.

I returned a couple hundred crummy DVDs a few years ago due to the fact that they basically weren't balanced.

I print directly onto my (printable) discs with an Epson R200/300 printer.

And , having said that, I wouldn't expect your failure mode is your stickers... but since some blanks are more translucent than others, anything is possible.
Well, I actually I think it IS the sticky labels. I just took the DVD that had played flawlessly with no label, applied a label and played it. It locked up. This may not be the be-all, end-all of my problem, but at least I know what is one source.

If this does appear to be the issue I can try the same as you with the Epson R200. I bought one some time ago on clearance and never opened it. I guess I now have a use for it!
 
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phd

Super Moderator
There is a huge debate over the use of labels on other forums. Most people recommend against using them.

Due to the higher speeds and lack of perfect centering they can throw the DVD off balance and cause problems.

The higher speeds of DVD rotation also cause the labels to soften and peel off. Feel the temperature of the DVD after ejectoing.

Riteks in recent times have gotten some bad press because there are a fair amount of bootleg Riteks out there. You can check the number on them and compare to known official and good Riteks to make sure they are legit.
 

bitter_old_man

New member
Riteks in recent times have gotten some bad press because there are a fair amount of bootleg Riteks out there. You can check the number on them and compare to known official and good Riteks to make sure they are legit.
It's not only fake Riteks that are the problem. Genuine Riteks are a problem too. Go to the blank media forum at CDFreaks and search for Ritek G05. You'll see tons of reports about degrading Riteks.

And NEVER put labels on discs. I learned my lesson with CD-Rs. I had some undreadable CD-Rs, removed the labels, and they were readable again. Here's a good thread on labels: http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=173236

Barry
 

smaye

New member
Riteks could be a problem with some, but i don't think this is the issue here. I have now taken 2 DVDs that were locking up and removed the sticky labels from them and they now play fine.

I am definitely going to the white inkjet printable.
 

Anole

Moderator
printing directly on DVDs & CDs

I pay from 25¢ to 35¢ for white/silver -R 8X DVD blanks, and less than $20 for a set of cartridges.

On my R200, after maybe 500 discs, I experienced some difficulty with the disc feed tray.
(didn't eject properly, not mis-registration of printing)

I got a new R320 for so cheap, if I throw away my R200, I won't even care.
(or I may find that cleaning or other technique rectifies the problem)

Needless to say, I'm happy with the results.
 

phd

Super Moderator
About how many disks do you print with a set of cartridges?

What is the approximate % coverage? (I believe simple text is assumed to be about 5-10% coverage.)
 

Anole

Moderator
disc printing

In my heyday, I was changing the cartridges 4..5 times a year.
In leaner times, 2..3 per year.
This'll have to be a pure guess, because I don't have actual records, but I'd say in excess of 100 discs per cartridge set.
I'm sure well over 75, and probably not over 150, so that's my best guess.
(That's based on a rough guess of how many DVDs I used during that time)

Buddy of mine actually got a set of external ink tanks, with plumbing.
They hold a lot more ink and "never" have to be changed (just refilled).
While the lower cost per page is a fact, I feel those only come into their own when you need to print "covers".
Now, those really suck up the ink!
I would estimate covers take 3..5 times the ink of a DVD, or more.

My technique is to use clear (a little milky) 6mm (slim, single disc) DVD cases, where you can see the face of the disc through the package.
99% of what I've burned has been single-disc, so the need for multi-disc cases and covers is minimal.
I've also used a lot of paper sleeves with a clear cutout on the face of the disc.

Coverage? Well, they're 100% color graphic artwork.
None of this "simple text on a plain white background" stuff. :)
 
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phd

Super Moderator
Cool! So you're doing the fancy stuff.

I still use the marker on non-printable DVDs. I do print covers and booklets when I have the time. Made a little template in MS Word.
 

Anole

Moderator
I also (currently) write on some standard discs with a magic marker.
Don't seem to have any problem.
Used to drive me nuts some years ago - the marker caused the same problem as those stickers.
I got to where I would only write with a fine tip in the inner clear center of the disc!
Talk about hard to read! :)

The discs opacity to IR and the inks reflectivity or absorption of IR seemed to be the problem.

Smaye - now that this thread is no longer about "VRD DVDs locking up", perhaps you would change the topic to something more accurate.
Perhaps something like: "Label problems with DVDs", or "Labels vs. Printing on DVDs", or whatever you think appropriate.

Pat - the Epsons come with disc-printing software.
So, no other tools needed.
Just import your artwork to their program, stretch or squeeze it to fit, and lay in other art/text/color/borders as desired.
You can bend text, too. Circular printing, if you like.

As for printing covers, I know NERO suite has the feature, and there are other programs.
I haven't really explored covers too much, but a buddy of mine has.
...and the best covers are made out of real photo paper, for that visual snap!
One big drawback is that most software wants to make covers for standard DVD boxes, and I use the thin ones.
 
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smaye

New member
Smaye - now that this thread is no longer about "VRD DVDs locking up", perhaps you would change the topic to something more accurate.
Perhaps something like: "Label problems with DVDs", or "Labels vs. Printing on DVDs", or whatever you think appropriate.

DONE- Thanks again for all your help Anole!
 

smaye

New member
UPDATE- I have now taken several DVDs that were locking up with labels, removed the labels, and they now play fine. I am fairly sure now that the labels were my problem.

I ran out and bought some injet printable DVDs for my R200. With a little trial and error I got it! The print quality is WAY better than those paper sticky labels.
 

Anole

Moderator
Welcome to the club.
Now, go to bed. :)

(I'm the only one allowed to stay up this late, and I'm going to bed!)
 

smaye

New member
(I'm the only one allowed to stay up this late, and I'm going to bed!)
Actually I got up at 2am, so I got plenty of sleep.

One question on printable DVDs. Is there a way to seal the surface from moisture so the ink will not run if a drop of water hits it?
 
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